They were more or less without flaws before Kil'jaeden though. They respected the world and its inhabitants and didn't fight/make war just for war's sake. They knew they had tremendous power but they didn't want to use it indiscriminately. If that isn't noble, then I don't know what is.

@ Knob

There's a big difference between 'flawless' and 'more-or-less flawless'

I'm not denying that the Orcs were very noble as a whole, but they certainly weren't perfect. Gul'dan was power hungry before drinking the blood, and Grom was all too happy to drink it down.

I think the important thing to remember is that Kil'jaeden, in deceiving them, simply brought to the fore tendencies which the Orcs already had. He did not create anything new within them, perhaps up until the demon blood of course.

Yes he just brought out their innate savagery, but I think the elder orcs already knew how violent their people could be and did what they could to keep it to a bare minimum. Knowing that you are capable of massive destruction and trying to keep yourself from doing so is admirable at least. Sure the younger orcs would have been more headstrong and want to show off their prowess more, but who's to say that if KJ hadn't shown up that the elders wouldn't have succeeded in tempering Gul'dan and Grom?

Rise of the Horde portrayed them all as very short tempered and irritable, but wise enough to realize these racial traits and take steps to maintain peace among the various (very differently thinking and functioning) clans. They were (and are, I suppose) the definitive "Proud Warrior Race", or race dedicated to the hunt and a love of combat, so the Orcish mindset has always been pretty violent. That being said, had the Burning Legion never come to Draenor, I wouldn't doubt that eventually the Draenei would of opened to them and the two races, which actually aren't so horribly different in their devotion to the elements and light, respectively, would of got along fine.

They weren't perfect, but they were far from "evil" from the get-go.

True, the orcs weren’t evil, but even current events indicate that you don’t need to drink demon blood in order to lust for battle. Garrosh, a mag’har that never even touched the stuff, is probably the most hot-headed and reckless orc leader there is. The fact that he has considerable support shows that he’s not alone in these attitudes. Overall, Orcs seem just as prone to hubris and violence as humans and their society may have been just as brutal and fragmented as pre-alliance Azeroth, even if a demon never set foot on Draenor. I don’t know if the Draenei, a culture with a more intellectual and calm culture, would have ever gotten along with the more tribal and warrior-like traditions of the orcs.

Don't forget that the Eredar were also completely deceived out of their own free will by Sargeras. Every race has the same hunger for power and there are always going to be a few bad apples in every one of them. You can't blame an entire race for being deceived by one of the most powerful and evil beings in existence; which doesn't excuse how the orcs sometimes behave these days.

should definitely read Christine Golden's excellent novel Rise of the Horde, lays all this out in terrific detail.

Though they did start the war prior to drinking the blood, they at least had to be corrupted first. Being gullible to Kil'jaeden and his lies would have been their largest and most damning fault. And no, he didn't create anything new, but he did take something away - their balance and restraint.

Not that the Dranei are necessarily as noble as some would like to think. They were getting chased down by their own corrupted people, after all.

The Eredar were not completely deceived. Velen knew right away that something wasn't right about Sargeras. 1/3rd of the race said "Screw this! We're not doing it!" and went into exile.
The Orcs WERE completely deceived. You might say that the Frostwolves resisted and got exiled, but they still participated in exterminating the Draenei. Durotan knew that this wasn't right, but he didn't do anything until it was too late. His son, Thrall, is making the same mistake with his "lets wait and see what happens" philosophy. Let's see what happens if I let Sylvanas keep that demon lord in the basement... whoops!

I didn't think they were warlocks before they drank the blood. They were shamans. And they were peaceful tribes in general.

Rise of the Horde is an EXCELLENT book. As far as orc's being less than perfect, what race is perfect in the sense? I see the orc race being model after our human life more so that the actual human race in the game. I'm proud to play an orc.

I just want to clarify my original comment.

I wasn't saying that Orcs are *worse* than others race, just that they weren't perfect. I didn't intend to imply that the other races had it all together. As many others have stated, one of the interesting things about Warcraft is that each and every race has its flaws.

Oh, @ Afterlife, it says right in this article that the Orcs became Warlocks before drinking the blood. They did this in order to gain power after they lost the ability to be Shamans, since the elemental spirits abandoned them for killing the Draenei.

to draw from another fictional source, the Orcs in warcraft are a lot like the Klingons in Star Trek. A culture that places value on combat and conflict and the individual's conduct in those situations. We look at it and think bloodthirsty warmongers, to them however, their sense of self, worth, pride, honor, ect. all depend on testing oneself against whatever blocks their way, or challenges their way of life.

humans in wow are not afraid to fight, they would rather seek understanding and peace keeping a defensive stance. the Orcs will fight first and conquer and subjugate what they can and sometimes find understanding and respect in their foes depending on how they conduct themselves in battle.

there are rare humans that the orcs respect because of their actions in conflict. Tirion Fordring and Eitrigg come foremost to my mind.

@lumacman

I think your characterization is mostly there. The Orcs today definitely are a lot like the Star Trek Klingons, however, keep in mind basically their entire race was rebooted. They lost their communion with their ancestors and spirits of their home world. I doubt they even remember their history and legends and stories. One moment they were fighting a holy battle against the evil Draenei (Sargeras fooled the Orcs into thinking the Draenei were hateful demonic conspirators working to disconnect the Orcs from their ancestor spirits), then the next thing they knew they emerged from their demonic bloodrage on Azeroth in internment camps. They were essentially drugged over a long period of time, lost their spiritual connections and lost their history (I doubt the blood-crazed Horde brought ancient scrolls from Draenor into battle, and I'm sure any oral histories would be difficult to remember, and many elder Orcs were likely killed), so the Orcs we have in Azeroth really aren't the same people as the Draenor Orcs. They have some similar properties, but they had to completely reinvent themselves and carve out a new home, new culture and new society as best they could.

Also keep in mind where they Orcs came from. On Draenor they had to fight Gronn... the same creatures that could go a full 10 rounds with a dragon. If you played through Nagrand on a Horde character you fought the Falcon, wild Goat and Elephant for Nesingwary's quest chain... and they were some tough customers, none the least of which were the many tribes of barbaric ogres lead by that powerhouse Cho'war, and last but not least, Durn the Hungerer, the 30-foot-tall Gronn mountain... and these guys were in the Draenor Orcs' backyard. This is what they dealt with on a daily basis. Yes, violence and massive destruction is part of the way they are wired, but when you live in a place where a 3-story Gronn may wander over and decide to eat your village for breakfast, violence is going to very quickly become part of your psychological makeup. The Draenor Orcs were somewhat like the Fremen of Dune... they are powerful and capable of great violence because they lived in an environment full of powerful and violent enemies. They were still civilized and capable of restraint though. In fact if you played through the very, very long Horde quest chain in Nagrand, you have to bend over backwards to convince the chief of the Nagrand Orcs to do anything to save his people. They are a lot like the Tauren, in fact. Very quiet, contemplative, and slow to uncork the fury and power they learned to control. What Sargeras did was to remove that restraint, so that the Orcs were on full power all the time, so that the fury and violence that could bring down a dragon-killer was constantly seeking the next target, and then turned them lose on Azeroth.

"Garrosh, a mag’har that never even touched the stuff, is probably the most hot-headed and reckless orc leader there is"


This got me wondering- a lot. What if there's a better explanation for why Garrosh is so hot-headed and reckless? What if he's following in the footsteps of other orcs from Draenor?